Inside the Arbitrator’s Chamber: A Deep Dive into International Dispute Resolution with Jennifer Lim

In this episode of Business Beyond Borders, we explore the world of international arbitration with our guest, Jennifer Lim, a renowned arbitration lawyer and a partner at Sidley Austin. 

Jennifer represents clients in investor-state and commercial arbitrations, with her expertise spanning multiple jurisdictions and arbitration rules, including ICSID, UNCITRAL, ICC, HKIAC, SIAC, and LCIA.

Jennifer's has also been honoured as a "Thought Leader – Global Elite" by Who's Who Legal and recognised as an "International Arbitration Future Leader."

In this episode, we cover:

• Jennifer’s journey to international arbitration
• Jennifer’s experience at the International Court of Justice
• Key upcoming challenges in international arbitration
• Importance of language skills in international dispute resolution
• The importance of passion and drive when pursuing a career in law

Whether you are a budding lawyer or a seasoned veteran in the field, this episode offers something for everyone, encouraging a broader, more nuanced perspective on the exciting realm of international law. Tune in now! 

Links:

Bluente's Website: https://www.bluente.com/

Jennifer’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zj-jennifer-lim/

Our Socials: @bluente.official (Instagram and Tik Tok)

Transcript

Podcast: Business Beyond Borders - A Podcast By Bluente

Episode Title: Jennifer

Host(s): Daphne

Guest(s): Jennifer

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Daphne (Host) | 00:00:07 to 00:00:39
Welcome to Business Beyond Borders, a bilingual podcast that explores the importance of international experiences in today's working world. This podcast is brought to you by Bluente. Bluente is the world's first business language learning app for professionals by professionals. We aim to connect professionals across the globe one conversation at a time. Join us as we engage with senior leaders from various industries ranging from the legal sector to finance, and many more who will share insider tips for navigating global markets in their industries.

Daphne (Host) | 00:00:39 to 00:01:10
From multilingual entrepreneurs to savvy lawyers, our guests share their first hand experiences and practical insights on building global networks and seizing international opportunities. Get ready to expand your horizons and propel your career to new heights. Welcome to another episode of Business Beyond Borders. Today we're very excited to have best Jennifer Lit to kickstart our series. Jennifer is a partner at Sidley Austin and also an international dispute resolutions and arbitration lawyer.

Daphne (Host) | 00:01:10 to 00:02:04
She represents her clients in both investor, state and commercial arbitration. With her expertise spanning across multiple jurisdictions and arbitration rules including Exit, Unsidital, LCIA, ICC, hkiec, and SIEC Caesar across Singapore, New York and Hong Kong, jennifer has been described as one of the best arbitration lawyers in her generation. Her contributions have been recognized and honored by Who's Who legal as her thought Leader Global Elite 2023 Arbitration Future Leadout, which is one of the most prestigious award given by the publication to outstanding lawyers under the age of 45. Her contributions are also acknowledged by the legal 500 Arbitration Power list as well as the Expert Guides Rising Stars list. We're really excited to have her with us here today on our podcast episode and really warm welcome.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:02:05 to 00:02:23
Thank you so much, Daphne. 

Daphne (Host) | 00:02:23 to 00:02:56
We will kick start to understand a little bit more about your background. What got you interested or jump into the field of international arbitration? 

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:02:56 to 00:03:29
Well, around the time that I was applying to university, I was actually quite interested in public international law. At the time, it was about 2008 and Singapore and Malaysia were in the Pedra Branca dispute before the International Court of Justice. So this was very widely publicized in Singapore. I was watching, reading the news really, and watching, I guess watching the ministers watch and the hearing. And I just thought this was such an interesting way of resolving disputes in a way that didn't require going to war or anything like that. 

So I really wanted to study law because of my interest in public international law and in law school I continued to pursue that interest. I participated in the Jessup Moot Court Competition competition, which is the largest international law competition in the world. And at that competition there was actually an issue to do with a bilateral investment treaty. And so I was like, what is this BIT thing? What is this treaty that allows private investors to bring claims directly against states as opposed to leaving it just to states to bring disputes against each other? And that's really what taught me about investor-state arbitration, which is a type of international arbitration. And through that, I just decided to go into arbitration more generally.

Daphne (Host) | 00:03:29 to 00:04:07
 How did that shape your experience or your perspective toward how you handle international arbitration cases? 

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:04:07 to 00:04:46
I think it really gave me an appreciation of how differences in your culture, differences in your legal background, can affect the way you perceive the same issue. And one example is, when I was at the international court of justice, my office mate was from a Latin American country, and I was reading a memorial, which is a submission by a Latin American country, and I read it in English, of course. they submitted it in Spanish with an English translation. So I read the english one, and I was feeling a little bit frustrated because I thought that the language they were using was too flowery, and they were saying a lot of things and not citing the authorities for what they were saying. And in meantime, for very trite principles of international law, that's when they cite authorities, and I was like, well, the things I need authorities for, exactly the arguments you're making. And I was mentioning this to my office mate, I decided to read out a portion of the sentence that I had a particular issue with. And he was like, that sounds beautiful in Spanish.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:04:47 to 00:05:09
I was like, okay. So I see why they wrote things the way that they did. From my perspective, I could not understand. But when my colleague told me, oh, yeah, I can see why they wrote it that way, it gave me an appreciation for how, again, these cultural differences can really affect the way you approach an issue. And it's the same thing for international arbitration.

Oftentimes it involves parties from different backgrounds. And to understand where they're coming from, you need to be mindful of really where they're coming from, what culture they're in, what legal system they're trained in. 

Daphne (Host) | 00:05:09 to 00:05:34
And how do you keep yourself abreast of the different cultures, understanding cultures from different jurisdictions? And, yeah, how do you go about doing that? 

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:05:34 to 00:06:14
I think part of it is open-mindedness, right. Not assuming that they think the same way that you do. It helps also that in the field of international arbitration, people who are practicing in that field tend to come from all walks of life. So I have a colleague who is also a Spanish lawyer, and he and I have had many debates about how to address a particular kind of legal argument. And oftentimes the reason we might seem to disagree in the first instance is because he's approaching it from a Spanish legal perspective, and I'm approaching it from my common law, New York, Singapore, English law perspective. And I think you could always also do research.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:06:14 to 00:06:23
When I got my first Japanese client, I was researching Japanese etiquette. I was like, where should I sit? How should I bow? To whom should I bow? You could always just learn about different cultures by researching them.

Daphne (Host) | 00:06:25 to 00:06:52
 Nice. Which brings me very nicely to the next question around. We understand that you are effectively bilingual in both Mandarin Chinese as well as English. So how has language really played a role in facilitating your approach towards handling cases, especially with individuals from different jurisdictions?

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:06:53 to 00:07:46
I think language is important because if your client is Chinese, for example, they understand so much better when you're trying to explain concepts in Chinese to them. And besides the linguistic differences, China follows a civil law system as well, so the concepts might sometimes not translate well. And that's the difficulty. I think practicing in Hong Kong, which I did before I moved to Singapore, was helpful in that context because they actually have a court glossary translating terms. They follow a common law system, but they use, you know, they do have translations of terms such as trusts, which is a concept that doesn't exist in Chinese law, and they have a Chinese translation, and I just use those Chinese terms then to explain to our Chinese clients these concepts.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:07:46 to 00:08:07
Conversely, sometimes they use terms that I'm just like, well, I understand where you're coming from. Under Chinese law, you would have a slam dunk case. But if it's under the governing New York law or some other law, that's a common law system. Your defenses don't apply in this context. So we're going to have to go with something else.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:08:07 to 00:08:39
We're going to have to use a different defense. But language is very important, I would say, for something like international arbitration in particular, because you're always dealing with parties who can come from different backgrounds, different languages. 

Daphne (Host) | 00:08:41 to 00:09:11
Okay, and let's look ahead in terms of in the field of international arbitration, what do you see as some of the challenges or opportunities that might be facing lawyers like yourself and also the general field of international arbitration? 

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:09:11 to 00:09:59
Do you want to start with the good news or the bad? Okay. I had a think about it. I think from the perspective of someone trying to enter the field, I think, or even from the perspective of clients, it can be difficult to identify the right law firm or the right lawyers to approach for a case. Right now, it's become a very kind of trendy topic. It's become a lot more crowded, the scene for international arbitration since I started practice, and everyone claims to do it. But given that I've been opposing counsel with a few different law firms, there is really a difference between firms that have significant experience in international arbitration and firms that say they do it, but they really do more domestic litigation or domestic arbitration because, again, they don't understand the international context in which they're operating. And that, I really think, affects their strategy, affects their effectiveness, their persuasiveness before an international tribunal. So that's really more from a career perspective or a client perspective. I think more generally kind of facing the arbitrage community as a whole.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:10:00 to 00:10:35
One challenge could be the fact that oftentimes our clients are caught up in the crossfire of geopolitical conflicts that may exist. Right. So one recent example actually is a Russian claimant that's trying to enforce that's, trying to bring an arbitration against another company. And because I think they're not directly named in the sanctions, but for some reason there are some concerns about their status based on US. Sanctions.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:10:35 to 00:10:47
And so they can't even make payment, or rather they have made payment, but the payment hasn't reached the arbitral institution because the arbitral institution is afraid of accepting payment in case they are found in violation of the sanctions.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:10:50 to 00:11:14
They're trying to bring a claim, they're trying to enforce their rights. They can't, because technically the arbitral institution hasn't received payment. Right. And the same could be the case for contracts where one party could basically say, well, we can't pay you because paying you or receiving money from you would put us in violation of U.S. sanctions laws.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:11:14 to 00:11:41
And of course there are ways to get around it, but when I say ways, I mean you can apply for licenses. I'm not trying to say circumventing. There are legal ways to get around it, but that takes time. For the period of delay where you're not supplying goods, where you're not receiving payment. Well, who bears the risk of that? Right? And that's a really tricky issue because it's not always kind of covered in a contract, or even if it is, sometimes it just means, well, you lose money.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:11:41 to 00:12:15
Right. Because the government stepped in here. So that's the bad news. I think the good news is, as long as there's globalization, and kind of despite what you see about more countries becoming more protectionist and the way they run the industries, I think globalization is not going to even decrease. Maybe it might not increase at the pace that it might not grow at the pace that it has, but as long as there's globalization, as long as there's international transactions, there will always be a place for international arbitration. I really think that's the preferred mode of dispute resolution that's binding as opposed to mediation that domestic litigation just can't cover.

Daphne (Host) | 00:12:15 to 00:12:47
 Okay. And I think earlier you also mentioned a point about different firms having different approaches towards international arbitration, and I thought it was quite interesting. Maybe would love to hear from prospective clients, how do they go about picking a firm that might really be an expert in international arbitration?

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:12:50 to 00:13:25
Wow, let me try to think about that. How do they come to pick? Oftentimes clients with absolutely kind of no exposure experience of international arbitration would look at listings like ranking guides and everything, which I think could be helpful, but they don't necessarily tell the full story because honestly, when you decide to engage a lawyer, you're not really engaging the whole firm. Sometimes you could for the benefits that the size of the firm provides. But you're really engaging a team, right, a particular lawyer or group of lawyers and their team.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:13:26 to 00:14:07
So for that, I think clients really just need to do their due diligence. They need to talk to lawyers, understand, well, what would you recommend in this situation? And based on whatever preliminary advice the lawyers are willing to give, that could really be a way for the lawyers to showcase not just their legal prowess, which should be a given, but also kind of the way they approach an issue, kind of the strategic thinking. 

Daphne (Host) | 00:14:07 to 00:14:26
Yeah, okay. And as we move on to talking about the field of international arbitration and dispute resolution, as you have alluded to, sometimes these cases can get pretty complex. And also, based on what you have shared, it seems that you have a very good grasp of working together with your clients. So would love to learn a bit more about what's your personal philosophy in terms of working together with them. How do you typically like to approach more complex issues that might arise in the field of international arbitration?

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:14:28 to 00:14:57
I think first and foremost, I always try to figure out what they want. What is it that you want to achieve? Because one complaint I've heard from clients, not about me, thankfully, but about other lawyers, honestly, even when I was growing up, right, from my relatives who work with lawyers, is that oftentimes they would say, well, this is what I want to do from a business perspective. And the lawyers would go, well, whatever way you've proposed to do, it doesn't work. It doesn't work under the law.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:14:57 to 00:15:18
And they don't propose solutions, they don't go well, but we know you're trying to achieve this, and even though the way that you think we want to do it doesn't work here's potentially some other ways we can structure the deal so that we can achieve what you want. Most lawyers don't go to the second stage. They just kind of think within the limits of what the client has told them and say, well, sorry, we can't help you.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:15:18 to 00:15:36
Right. They think within the confines of the contract and they go, well, we can't help you. So what I try to do is, again, try to understand, well, what do you want to achieve? And then maybe here's how we can help you achieve it using legal tools. But sometimes legal tools alone are not enough.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:15:36 to 00:16:07
So we work with consultancies like PR firms, we work with investigation firms, because these provide complementary services that could kind of help the client achieve its commercial goals as well. And then when things get complex, and this happened recently as well for me, sometimes I have to tell the client there's no perfect solution. Here are the various options available to you. Here are the implications for each of these options. The risk, the benefits.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:16:07 to 00:16:19
Here's what we would recommend based on what you have kind of said you want to do. Right. So the choice is theirs. We have given them a recommendation, so it's not like we are not taking a position. Right. But we're also kind of explaining to them, there's no perfect solution to this. There are risks to each of every one of them, but we have assessed the risks and we think this is the one that's the best way forward. 

Daphne (Host) | 00:16:20 to 00:16:48
Yeah, I think that's really a very sound approach. I mean, a lot of times we always want to be representing our clients appropriately, but also at the same time thinking in their shoes so that we can give the best advice to get a successful outcome. 

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:16:48 to 00:17:01
Exactly. And sometimes it's not natural. Right. Like there was a case recently where the client really just wanted to go nuclear. I mean, they were using terms that were very reminiscent of like war terms. Right.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:17:02 to 00:17:28
It wasn't because they necessarily wanted to win in the arbitration. It was actually a restructuring with some related arbitration. So we were working with our restructuring team for this case and they really wanted us to go nuclear on the arbitration because they wanted to put pressure on the other side to essentially do something in relation to the restructuring. So there was a broader goal. Right.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:17:28 to 00:17:50
Even though for me, it felt very unnatural to be like, being as aggressive as I was in the arbitration with the case that we had, I was like, okay, I see where you're coming from. You understand the risk, you understand that we could lose the case. You understand that we could get cost, whatever. They understand the risk, they want to go ahead, so we went ahead. Right.

Daphne (Host) | 00:17:51 to 00:18:06
Yeah. That's very interesting because sometimes people might only see one small part of it, but oftentimes we need to really understand how do we fit into the bigger picture with our clients. Which brings me to the last question. As you think about the next generation of lawyers or younger lawyers who are entering into the field or considering a career option in international arbitration, what advice do you have for them? 

Daphne (Host) | 00:18:08 to 00:18:37


Jennifer (Guest) | 00:18:37 to 00:19:11
I would say if you are interested in international arbitration and dispute resolution, then you should make your interest clear. Right. You can make that clear through the causes that you choose to take in law school, through the MOOT courts, the competitions, whatever it is. There's so many opportunities for you to kind of showcase your interest. And in interviews, you have to be able to articulate why you're interested in something. You can't just go, well, I'm interested because everyone loves it. It's like the hot thing right now, because that doesn't tell me why you in particular would be a good fit for international arbitration. So they would really kind of have to think, well, why am I interested in this and how can I pursue it? I may come across as a bit idealistic in saying this, but I think there's some value in doing what you like and pursuing what you're interested in rather than being driven just by what is currently the popular thing.

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:19:11 to 00:19:37
Because ultimately, if you want a long career in a law, you have to like what you do. There's nothing that quite justifies the hours that you put in, the stress and everything if you don't like it. And I could tell you there are times when I'll be working crazy late at night and I still like what I'm doing because I do. I like dispute resolution because I like winning. But you have to know why you like it. You have to find something that drives you beyond it's the next big thing or it's the current big thing. 

Daphne (Host) | 00:19:37 to 00:20:09
Yeah. I think it is very evident. I can see the spark in your eyes and also from your description of how it started from back when you saw it in the news and then pursued that both in your education path and academic and then to your career. I think it's very evident to see how your passion is driving to and, yeah, super inspirational.

Daphne (Host) | 00:20:09 to 00:20:21
Thanks so much for sharing. I think this wraps up the English segment of today's podcast. I will now move on to the Chinese rapid fire questions. 

Daphne (Host) | 00:20:22 to 00:20:23
我们现在进行快问快答的环节。你准备好了吗？Jennifer, 你可以做一个自我介绍吗？

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:20:26 to 00:21:02
好啊，大家好，我是盛德律师所的 Lin Zhuo Jun 律师。我专注于国际仲裁和国际争议的解决，也是符合国际商会和新加坡国际仲裁中心仲裁规则的仲裁员。

Daphne (Host) | 00:21:06 to 00:21:56
那能够跟我们观众提一下你每天工作中所做的些什么吗？

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:21:59 to 00:22:04
我日常工作就是会聆听各种客户的电话和会议内容，尽力了解他们的商务目标，然后就如何从法律的角度最好的实现这些目标。

Daphne (Host) | 00:22:11 to 00:23:11
那对于年轻律师来说，你会介绍那一本书给他们阅读呢？

Jennifer (Guest) | 00:23:22 to 00:23:47
我的答案会比较适合诉讼律师吧，因为我是诉讼律师。我会建议年轻律师阅读 Philip Meyer, Storytelling for Lawyers 这本书。因为我觉得这本书强调了叙事在仲裁中的核心作用，而现在很多年轻的律师可能没有意识到这一点。 

Daphne (Host) | 00:24:04 to 00:24:33
Thank you so much, Jennifer, for spending your time today to share with us your experience and perspectives in relation to international arbitration. I've personally learned a lot and also very inspired by your passion and fire to push forth the international arbitration field and really excited to see more successful cases coming from you in the near future. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Business Beyond Borders. If you have any feedback or thoughts, do write into us at support@bluente.com.

Daphne (Host) | 00:24:33 to 00:24:37
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